Clouds

September 14, 2013 / Carl / Leave a comment

Clouds

Clouds are complex. The range of impact on our lives goes from supplying some shade from the noon day sun, and the ever desired gentle rain, to wreaking havoc by delivering hurricane type destruction. I think it is so also in the Scriptures. Why is this a topic today?

During services this morning, we sang the following song, and it got me to thinking.

The song goes like this…

clouds 2

These are the days of Elijah
Declaring the word of the Lord, yeah
And these are the days of Your servant Moses
Righteousness being restored

These are the days of great trials Of famine and darkness and sword
Still we are the voice in the desert crying

Prepare ye the way of the Lord!

Say, behold He comes, riding on the clouds…..

My question is … when Jesus says He is “coming on the clouds”, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Coming on the Clouds

What is the context in the New Testament to this phrase “coming on the clouds”? Is there some Old Testament background that might give us some understanding?

A passage that comes to mind when associating clouds with God is Isaiah 19:1

Isaiah 19:1

The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

An additional passage that associates clouds with judgement on Israel.

Lamentations 2:1

How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

A number of times in the minor prophets, clouds are associated with judgement on Israel.

Joel 2:2

A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Nahum 1:3

The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Zepheniah 1:15

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The issue I fear and the reason I am writing is due to this seeming ambiguity. When Jesus said He would be “coming with the clouds” should we rejoice or shudder. What was Jesus referring to when He made that statement. Many think that He was referring to the following verse out of Daniel, when the prophet is describing the ascension of the Messiah to the Throne of God. Notice that the verse speaks of the Son of Man coming TO the Ancient of Days! This could not be describing His glorious return to earth as many in the church think. Of course His return is a Day that a true believer waits on, but is it ever described as Him “coming on the clouds”?

Daniel 7:13

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him

If this verse is describing the ascension, Jesus use of it clearly signaled to the Jewish leadership His claim to Messiahship, and the ability to come in judgement upon sinful nations. The phrase coming in the clouds fours times in the New Testament, as seen below.

Matthew 24:30

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

I wonder – Does the prophet Amos have something to say to us?

clouds 3

Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Elements in the New Testament

January 7, 2013 / Carl / Leave a comment

Ignorance of Elements

I remember in Sunday School teaching through the book of Colossians and comin up against this word elements (gk stoicheia), in Col. 2:8, 20-22, and simply being stumped.

I probably skimmed over the term elements (shame on me!) and went on to something that was familiar.

Safe.

Easy.

Since then, a lot of water has passed under the bridge, if you know what I mean. Due to my willingness to be proven wrong (sometimes kicking and screaming), I have come to the realization that I did not know it all.

All you that are surprised by this admission, please raise your hands.

(I see you out there Blair.)

Eschatological “Elements“

Recently I was reading a book on eschatology and the author addressed the topic of elements, equating them with the new heavens and new earth in 2 Peter. He showed that Peter used the word elements (gk stoicheia) when referring to the that which would melt with fervent heat.

His suggestion floored me as to what the elements were and I promised myself I would research it some more.

What I found was the following essay addressing the new testament concepts of elements, and the very concern I had.

It has challenged me on many fronts.

Take a read and let me know whatchathink!

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Stoicheia

By Donald Hochner

This is the fourth of five articles with Greek words. We are going to look into the Preterist’s view on “elements.” The Greek word for elements used here is “stoicheia,” and it appears in the NT only seven times. When you see the terms like “elements,” ask yourself what this means? In Young’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the literal meaning of the word is “element, rudiment, principle.” In other words, these are the elements of religious training, or the ceremonial precepts that are common to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles. We will look into it and you may find out.

Why I am talking about this is because the Futurists believe the elements of the physical heavens and earth were going to melt away or be burned up, especially in 2 Peter 3. Does this word “elements” refer to the scientific idea of the elements of matter, all the “atoms” of the universe? Or the periodic table of elements? I don’t think so! We will first look into seven passages with the word “elements” or in Greek “stoicheia.” I am using Young¹s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible.

1. Gal. 4:3, 9 – “So also we, when we were babes, under the elements of the world were in servitude…and now, having known God — and rather being known by God — how turn ye again unto the weak and poor elements to which anew ye desire to be in servitude?” Notice Paul uses the word twice. This context is clearly his discussion of the relationship of the Jew to the old law of Moses, in verses 1-7; the Gentiles who had served idols in verse 8. The blessings, by the way, are contrasted, which are in Christ. So, the Jews were held in bondage to the old law of Moses or the tradition of men. Paul exhorted the Christian brethren not to return to the bondage to that Law. The Law was our tutor to bring us into Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal. 3:23-24). No man could keep that Law perfectly. The Gentiles served worthless idols. Both had been in bondage to the stoicheia of the world. Therefore, the use of “elements” is not about the physical world.

2. Col. 2:8, 20-22 – “See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ, …If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances? — thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle — which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men.” Again, Paul uses the word twice. In verse 8 he pleads with the Colossian church not to allow anyone to deceive them by way of worldly philosophy, or traditions of men according to the elements or rudiments of the world. In this context, there were two different dangers they confronted: Judaistic activities in verses 16-17, and possibly some cultic or pagan activities in verse 18. The point is, once again, this one is not about the material creation.

3. Heb. 5:12 – “For even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what [are] the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food.” This writer laments to the Jewish Christians (Hebrews) the fact that they had not grown in Christ as they should. The writer says they need someone to teach them again with “milk, not solid food” in elementary principles of God’s oracles before becoming teachers and mature. Obviously, this “stoicheia” is not about atoms or the creation of the universe.

4. 2 Peter 3:10-13 – “And it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts? waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt; and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell” Notice Peter uses the word twice. In both views he says the elements will be destroyed or burned up. So far, we (hopefully) agree that the fact “elements” does not, in its other previous passages, ever refer to the physical universe.

Nowhere do the Scriptures teach that this physical creation will be destroyed. In the beginning God created the universe and it was good. The sin of men only affected the human race. This is what we call “total depravity.” In fact, the Scripture speaks of the earth’s permanence (Ps. 104:5; Ecc. 1:4) and the church throughout all generations (Eph. 3:21). Read in Gen. 8:21, after the great flood God looked down the flow of time and into man’s heart and said “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth (total depravity), and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.” This one is not speaking only about the flood in Gen. 9:15. This is CRITICAL! God would never again curse the ground nor destroy every living creature. Could God reverse His promise? He cannot lie. We must keep in mind that the Bible itself is in harmony as the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures. God is not a God of confusion.

We will do some study in 2 Peter 3:10-13. In verse 10, “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief” is the parallel to other passages in Matt. 24:42-44 (Jesus was speaking to His disciples in their generation), in 1 Thes. 5:2-10 (see in verse 3 about the destruction of Jerusalem), and in Rev. 3:3 (to the church in Sardis) which are referring to the first-century audience. This would fit all together in one theme.

In verse 12, notice “looking (Gk: prosdokao – fervent, expecting, anticipating) and hastening (Gk: speudo – speeding, eagerness) the coming (Gk: parousia – presence, coming, advent) of the day of God.” Peter uses this word “prosdokao” three times in verse 12, 13, and 14. And each verse says the brethren to whom he was writing were looking (expecting) and hastening the day of God in their lifetime, for the end of all (Jewish) things was AT HAND (1 Peter 4:7).

In verse 13, “But according to His promise (see Rom. 4:13, 16; Eph. 3:6; Heb 4:1; 9:15; 10:36-39; 12:25-29 and many more about the promise of God) we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.” First we will look at what “heavens and earth” means. It means that when God made His covenant with Israel at Mt. Sinai, He planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth. See in Deut. 32:1; Isa. 1:1-4; 24:1-5; 51:15, 16. So, it is clearly not a literal heavens and earth. It is the covenant of God. Did you know that the great reformer John Owen embraced the preterist interpretation in 2 Peter 3? (Works, 16 vols. in 9:134-38).

Peter tells us they expected the “new” heavens and earth. We ought to check out the word “new” that he used. There are two words translated as “new” in the NT. They are “neos” and “kainos.” Interesting, neos is new in time, never been before, or that which has recently come into existence. Other one is kainos which means new in quality, not time. So, Peter uses kainos in this verse. Now, if someone takes the position that the new heavens and earth is a literal way, it is inconsistent with the word of kainos. If God destroys this earth and creates another, that would be a new (neos) earth not a new (kainos). We have seen in the NT that it says we have a new (kainos) covenant (Heb. 8), a new (kainos) creation (2 Cor. 5:17) and the church is a new (kainos) Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2 c.f. Heb. 12:22).

Lastly, “the new heavens and a new earth” must have come into Peter’s mind from the book of Isaiah, chapters 65 and 66. Notice before God creates the new heavens and a new earth, He will pour out His wrath against Jerusalem, His rebellious people (Isa. 65:1-7, 11-17; 66:3-6, 15-18, 24). This involves the making of a new Israel or the Church (Isa. 65:8-10, 15; 66:7-14). When God created the new heavens and earth, notice that physical death will remain (Isa. 65:20, 66:24), spiritual home construction and agriculture will continue (Isa. 65:21-22 = 1 Cor. 3:6-8; 9:7-11), it will have descendants (Isa. 65:23, 66:22), the Lord will hear their prayers (Isa. 65:24), it will have evangelism (Isa. 66:19), it will have new priests (66:21), as well as weekly and monthly worship (in other word, everyday Isa. 66:23); and there will be an everlasting hell where the worm shall not die, and the fire shall not quenched to those who have transgressed against the Lord (Isa. 66:24). The new heavens and earth is referring to the eternal state while we live in the physical realm in earthly bodies; it must be referring to a period in human history. This is the period of the Kingdom of God which Christ rules in the hearts of the believers. The Kingdom of God is made without hands (spiritual – Dan. 2:34, 44-45; c.f. Col. 2:10-11). If we take the statements from the scriptures at face value, then we should conclude that the first heavens and the first earth passed away and was replaced by the glorious reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingdom without end.

The fact is that anytime Scripture uses the phase “last days” (and similar expression) it means, not the end of the world or physical universe, but the period from 30-70 AD. This was the period during which the Apostles were preaching and writing, the “last days” of Old Covenant Israel before it was forever destroyed in the destruction of the Temple (and consequently the annihilation of the Old Covenant sacrificial system). Read Acts 2:16-21; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; Heb. 1:1-2; 8:13; 9:26; James 5:7-9; 1 Peter 1:20; 4:7; 2 Peter 3:3-4; 1 John 2:18; Jude 17-19; Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6-10, 12, 20. The Old Covenant Israel is done. All the prophecies are fulfilled. The Bible is completed. The scheme of redemption has been accomplished. The tree of life has been restored (Jesus Christ gave us everlasting life) which Adam lost.

I would recommend you to read in Athanasius’ On the Incarnation of the Word, Section 40 Verses 1-8 because I do not have enough space. Athanasius, the early Christian writer from the fourth century, made a significant preterist statement.

In conclusion, what we have seen so far is that the Preterist’s view is consistent with the Scriptures. The Futurist’s views do not agree with the Scriptures for several reasons. The first reason is their views are based on their church traditions or creeds. The second reason is the lack of careful analysis of the original Greek words used in the Bible and their proper meaning. The Futurists also did not carefully compare different Scriptures to determine their actual meaning.

Hopefully this will help a lot and cause you to rethink your view of eschatology. Blessed are those who abide His Word.

WHAT JESUS PROBABLY DIDN’T MEAN – John 14:1-6

November 22, 2012November 25, 2012 / Carl / 5 Comments

I was in Sunday School this morning and we ventured into John 14 for some discussion. It was a good class but I was distracted with something I discovered a while back.

I suppose that is why I am writing this very post.

Whenever I read John 14:1-6, I previously understood it as follows.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In heaven are many buildings: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to heaven to build a castle/palace/house for you. And if I go and prepare a castle/palace/house for you, I will come again (at the end of time), and receive you unto myself (in the rapture); that where I am (in heaven), there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is this the message the apostles understood from the Master? I am not so sure and I would like to try to explain why.

This message was given to the disciples after the last supper and prior to the arrest of the Messiah. At this point in the life of the Messiah, the apostles had not yet accepted the idea of the Master being taken from them in death. Jesus had informed them of His departure, but they did not want to accept it, they had no idea of a resurrection, and the rapture as we understand it was a completely foreign concept to them. (To insert the idea of a rapture into this passage seems to be a very fine example of eisegesis*.)

But Carl – he talks of mansions in heaven.

Does He?

Consider.

Is Jesus referring to heaven when He speaks of His Fathers house? Are there any passages in the Old or New Testaments that are able to reinforce this teaching?

Consider the following passages that I found in the Bible that equate the Fathers house to heaven.

…

Dang – I couldn’t find any either.

But I could find passages that speak of the Fathers house as being the earthly temple of God. Such as.

John 2:16

And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

At no time have I ever considered that the thief’s had set up shop in heaven – It was in the temple that the thieves created a “house of merchandise”

Often in the Scriptures, the Lord speaks of dwelling with His people on earth. His house is with the saints and we are the living stones, creating a holy temple for the Lord. These concepts and truths are easily recognized by those who have spent time in the Word.

But I still can’t find where the Fathers house is equated with heaven. Maybe – just maybe that wasn’t His message. Maybe heaven is what Jesus probably didn’t mean.

Well then – what did He intend for his disciples to understand?

Lets first look at one more problem – the Old KJV took a word that John uses only twice in his gospel. In the first instance it is translated as “mansion” The greek word is μονή, (mone). Interestingly John is the only author that uses this word and he uses it twice in the same chapter. Of course the first instance is where “mansions” is used as the translation.

The second instance is found in verse 23.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Can you guess where we will find the greek work μονή? In the verse above, μονή is translated as “our abode”.

Let’s think about this. Using Vine’s Expository Dictionary as reference material (see below) we find that the word μονή, (mone) defines an abiding place, a dwelling place.

So we have the following considerations:

the Fathers House is the Temple. Heaven is not referred to in the passage,
the rapture was unknown to the disciples, so they could not have associated Jesus message with any catching up after His death and resurrection and ascension and church age and…. (They had a lot to still learn!)
the reference to mansion in verse 2 seems to cloud the intended meaning of an “abode”.

So what is the Master’s intended message for His people in this passage?

He is speaking of the fulfillment of God’s desire to abide with His people. He will prepare a place by way of His crucifixion and resurrection. He will come again to take up residence in His church.

John 14:2

In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I am thinking that He is talking to His disciples in a manner that they can understand, referring to the temple (the Fathers House) as a place that has many abiding places. I don’t see in this portion any reference to who is abiding in these abiding places. Is it for the believer or for the Father? Could He be saying I am going to prepare a place for you (that place being the church, the body of Christ?) Consider verse 23, where John is speaking of the Father and the Son as abiding with His people.

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When he prepares this place (the Church, the Body of Christ), He will come again (Pentecost?), accepting/receiving the disciples unto Himself (in the Church, the Fathers House, the new Temple), with the purpose of having His people with Him in the same place (the Church, the Fathers House, the new Temple).

John 14:4

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

And where I go you know. He is going to prepare the body of Christ, and the disciples have been with Him for three years by now – of course they knew “the way” He IS the way. No wonder Jesus was surprised by the question posed by Thomas.
Do we sometimes insert later revelation into a text to support our ideas? Do we sometimes miss the tremendous blessing of the Body of Christ by hoping for something better? The rapture and end of the world is coming, the resurrection has been secured by the Savior. We need to enjoy His presence, and that of others in the Body now, and not simply look to the future as the beginning of (real) eternal life. It is available now.

With these thoughts, I would ask you to read the passage below afresh.

John 14:1-24

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

I look forward to your comments and questions.

*Definition of EISEGESIS

: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas — compare exegesis

Vines is helpful in understanding how “mansions” became the popular translation

primarily “a staying, abiding” (akin to meno, “to abide”), denotes an “abode” (Eng., “manor,” “manse,” etc.), translated “mansions” in Jhn 14:2; “abode” in Jhn 14:23. There is nothing in the word to indicate separate compartments in heaven; neither does it suggest temporary resting-places on the road.

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part VI

May 13, 2011 / Carl / Leave a comment

A dear friend of mine asked if I would discuss dispensationalism and Zechariah 14 with a brother who owns a bible prophecy website. I gladly accepted the invitation. I have changed the web site owners name to “Brother” for the sake of his privacy. What follows is a continuation of the discussion began in Part I.

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If you truly want to follow the Person of Jesus, you would pay attention too the Holy Spirit, which leads us into all truth, and you would gravitate towards the truths of the statements of the apostles of Jesus, who told us that we ought:

to “exercise discernment” (Heb 5:14),
to “try the spirits” (1 John 4:1),
to “give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine” (1 Timothy 4:13),
to “meditate” and carefully think about the Word of God (1 Timothy 4:15),
to “study to show thyself approved unto God” (2 Timothy 2:15),
to demonstrate your honour as you “search out a matter” (Prov 25:2),
to show your nobility as you “search the scriptures daily” (Acts 17:11), and
to “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18).

If you are going to do all of that, there are quite a few concepts our Saviour wants you to get, such as the ten commandments, and a lot more! If you don’t follow those, you cannot live in peace with your fellow man, and if you love God, and if you love your neighbor, you will follow them a lot more easily.

Please note, I still have trouble, because I don’t like defrauding my fellow man with paper money, but what can I do when they demand it?! As for the feasts, we have freedom to observe them or not, according to my limited understanding, but perhaps when the Lord returns, that liberty will be eliminated, as Zech 14 clearly teaches.

Will you argue with God?

I will argue that you, if you live during that time, and don’t observe the feasts, and travel to Jerusalem, Zechariah will be proved right, and you will be proved wrong, and upon you will be no rain, because later, the Bible says that all scripture is inspired of God, and there sits Zechariah, challenging our understanding. You can look at Colotians 2 in another way, why are you judging me for saying that the Feasts of the Lord are important? Are you not judging me in regard to the new moon, when you should not do so? I refuse to let you judge me, so there! And yes, they are shadows of things to come! That means they are prophecies, prophetic, rehearsals, they teach us prophecy! That’s why I know so much about the prophetic things that you are asking, because I’ve studied the feasts, and their meaning, and so, I understand scripture in ways that you do not.

I do live by faith. Faith is an action verb in the bible, not a “non action belief” as the thought is in the west. My actions are clearly evident, in my business, and in my prophecy website.

As for symbols, if Jesus is a person, and if we will all see him “face to face”, how will that be possible if there are billions of people? Would he not, at some point, tell people to go home, and get to work? And at those times, the people will have reminders around them, as Zech says, the pots and pans will be inscribed “holy to the Lord”.

Yes, I do apply Isa 65 to the millennium. The refreshed earth is a fitting description of the future millennium.

How does 2 Thess 1:8 fit in?

Very well with 1 Thess 5, which refers to Ezekiel 38-39, which also describes a time of 7 years. At the time of the rapture, God will rain fire down to destroy the enemies attacking Israel from the North.

Not every wicked person on earth attacks Israel at this time, so there are plenty of wicked people left over to enter the tribulation, and from them, “survivors”, too.

RE: If those worthy are taken up at the rapture, and when the Lord comes back, all that know not God will be consumed, who is left?

The text does not say “all”. It says “them that know not God”. Obviously, if they did know God, they would not be attacking Jerusalem, of which we are commanded to pray for the peace of.

RE: Surely I hope you won’t tell me that the Lord comes back (Rapture) and only takes some of His people to heaven, leaving some on earth for the next coming?

Well, you have it close. Read Matthew 25, the 10 virgins parable again. 5 foolish virgins are looking for his return, that’s not what the world does; they think they are Christians, but they are not. See also Matthew 7:22, and Rev 2-3.

Water, does, indeed, cleanse us from being unclean; one of the marks of sin.

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Brother

I am going to copy your last response and intersperse my comments. You made many statements that I would like to address and I think this is the best way. (My comments/questions will be in italics.)

to “exercise discernment” (Heb 5:14),

to “try the spirits” (1 John 4:1),

to “give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine” (1 Timothy 4:13),

to “meditate” and carefully think about the Word of God (1 Timothy 4:15),

to “study to show thyself approved unto God” (2 Timothy 2:15),

to demonstrate your honour as you “search out a matter” (Prov 25:2),

to show your nobility as you “search the scriptures daily” (Acts 17:11), and

to “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18).

I agree wholeheartedly with the above statements, – I am unsure why you are bringing these items up, unless you feel I am in need of correction, of which, if that is the intent, I accept the rebuke. (I would appreciate a specific issue that I need to address.)

If you are going to do all of that, there are quite a few concepts our Saviour wants you to get, such as the ten commandments,

Are you obedient to the ten commandments?

Search the scriptures Brother. The New Testament tells me that Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, and I need to pay attention to Him. If He tells me to obey the ten commandments, I will seek to. Show me in the new testament all ten commandments. It is a very interesting study! (A bit frustrating if you are looking for all ten commandments, though!)

BTW, the ten commandments are not concepts, they are commandments!

and a lot more!

What else, other than the ten commandments, do you see as being a “concept” that Jesus wants me to get? I need to know, in order to follow them.

I am curious what you consider to be the authoritative source for your life? Are the ten commandments enough? What about the sacrificial system and the ceremonial cleansing? Must I follow the commands of the Old Testament to be right with God?

If you don’t follow those, you cannot live in peace with your fellow man, and if you love God, and if you love your neighbor, you will follow them a lot more easily.

I am not sure your intent in saying the above? If I love God and my neighbor, I am following all the commandments.

Matthew 22:37-41

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 10:26-28

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

(what do you mean by “a lot more easily”?)

Please note, I still have trouble, because I don’t like defrauding my fellow man with paper money, but what can I do when they demand it?!

I am not sure what you are referring to? Are you defrauding someone? What can you do? You need to obey Jesus!

As for the feasts, we have freedom to observe them or not, according to my limited understanding, but perhaps when the Lord returns, that liberty will be eliminated, as Zech 14 clearly teaches.

But you see, Zech does not clearly teach that we have liberty to observe the feasts now! Where do you get the idea that as Christians, we are to observe the feasts?

Galatians 4:9-11

But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Obviously Paul was making a point that the Galations were observing OT holidays (calling them weak and beggarly!), and due to this, Paul considered these actions to be proof that they didn’t “get the gospel”

Will you argue with God?

I have found that I struggle with many issues in the Word, and I find that many times some of the OT prophets struggled, even argued with God, and found clarity after a period of struggle and questioning. (Consider Jer 12:1-2)

Jeremiah 12:1-4

Righteous are You, O LORD, when I plead with You;
Yet let me talk with You about Your judgments.
Why does the way of the wicked prosper?
Why are those happy who deal so treacherously?
You have planted them, yes, they have taken root;
They grow, yes, they bear fruit.
You are near in their mouth
But far from their mind.
But You, O LORD, know me;
You have seen me,
And You have tested my heart toward You.
Pull them out like sheep for the slaughter,
And prepare them for the day of slaughter.
How long will the land mourn,
And the herbs of every field wither?
The beasts and birds are consumed,
For the wickedness of those who dwell there,
Because they said, “He will not see our final end.”

So, I have to admit, I have sometimes argued with God! Have you never questioned or been puzzled by issues that are troubling in the Word?

According to your own teaching, I will not be on the earth at this time. You still are thinking this is the end of the tribulation, right? And you are a pre-tribber, right? Since I am a Christian, according to your teaching, we will be raptured prior to the period of Zechariah 14, right? So this is an empty arguement!

You can look at Colossians 2 in another way, why are you judging me for saying that the Feasts of the Lord are important? Are you not judging me in regard to the new moon, when you should not do so? I refuse to let you judge me, so there!

I think you are having fun with me here, and that is great, but in case you took offense….

Why would you refuse rebuke? As Christians, we should look for the Lord to be using His Word through other believers to mold and transform us into His image. I am sure you want that for your life and refusing the Word is not a wise position to be in.

As a matter of fact, we are to judge those within the church! 1 Corinthians 5:12 states that Christians are not to judge those outside the church, but those inside the church. (It seems we get that backwards very often!)

1 Corinthians 5:11-13

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

(BTW – I only brought up Col 2:16 to show that the feasts were of no importance. I really didn’t intend any judgment on your beliefs, but since you reacted so strongly, you might consider the passage again! )

And yes, they are shadows of things to come!

Check your verb tense in the verse you are referring to. I think you may be referring to one or both of the following texts

Heb 10:1

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Heb. 10:1)

Col 2:16 – 17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

The previous verse are declaring the law (generally) (Heb 10:1) or the dietary regulations and religious observance of certain days (Col 2:16) as shadows of things to come. Consider that the law was given millennia prior to the cross, and at that time, were prophetic of the time of the Messiah.

If that is so, then the feasts were prophetic to the nation of Israel, beginning in the time of Moses.

The seven feasts are:

Passover – Nisan 14-15

Unleavened Bread – Nisan 15-22

First Fruits – Nisan 16-17

Pentecost – Sivan 6-7

Trumpets – Tishri 1

Atonement – Tishri 10

Tabernacles – Tishri 15-22

The Passover feast is fulfilled in the crucifixion

1 Corinthians 5: 6-8

Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth

The Feast of unleavened bread seems to be implied in the above passage also, and is fulfilled as we live in sincerity and truth.

The Feast of the First Fruits seems to be implied as being fulfilled in many references to Christ being the firstfruits, or the early Christians as being “firstfruits”

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits ·of Achaia unto Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Revelation 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

(As an aside – it is interesting that those described in Revelation, which I think you would identify with trib saints, are firstfruits, not last fruits!)

The day of Pentecost is a completed prophecy (Acts 2)

I do not know of any other statements in the New Testament that directly links a feast to a fulfillment. Of course there are references to “trumpets” and any linking with the feast of trumpets is arbitrary to say the least since the scriptures do not specify any historical event. The same goes for the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles. (I would think the day of atonement might be associated with the crucifixion also, but that is merely guess work on my part. (and we do not want to guess!!!)

That means they are prophecies, prophetic, rehearsals, they teach us prophecy! That’s why I know so much about the prophetic things that you are asking, because I’ve studied the feasts, and their meaning, and so, I understand scripture in ways that you do not.

You are correct there – Many things you have said escape me – You seem to link passages together without any justification other than one word, and have the confidence that your interpretation is unassailable.

I do live by faith. Faith is an action verb in the bible, not a “non action belief” as the thought is in the west. My actions are clearly evident, in my business, and in my prophecy website.

(Didn’t you just confess to defrauding someone? But that is neither here nor there – )

Do you/they not have the Holy Spirit? Do you/they need “pots and pans” to supplement your/thier relationship with the Lord?

Yes, I do apply Isa 65 to the millennium. The refreshed earth is a fitting description of the future millennium.

I am glad to hear that you admit to applying a scripture that specifically states one thing (the new heavens and new earth) and you are using it to describe a completely different time period (a 1000 yr period prior to the new earth and new heavens). That is your decision, but do not tell me that you are faithful to the Word of God at the same time.

How does 2 Thess 1:8 fit in? Very well with 1 Thess 5,

HOW?

which refers to Ezekiel 38-39,

Where does 1 Thess 5 (entire chapter?) refer to Ezekiel 38-39?

which also describes a time of 7 years.

Ezekiel 39:9
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

This is the only verse that refers to seven years in Ez 38-39. How does burning weapons (I assume wooden weapons, since they burn), have anything to do with the coming of the Lord in flaming fire?

And why do you choose seven years, when just a few verses later, seven months are referred to?

Ezekiel 39:12
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Ezekiel 39:14
And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

Too many loose ends Brother!

At the time of the rapture, God will rain fire down to destroy the enemies attacking Israel from the North.

I think you mean at the time of the Second Coming, God will rain fire down…., right?

If that is what you mean, and you are associating the 7 years of weapons burning with the Second Coming, then the first 7 years of the Millenium will have fields of weapons burning? Or is it during the entire tribulation that the weapons are burning? If so, the rapture and the attack you see in Ezekiel on Israel happens at the same time?

Not every wicked person on earth attacks Israel at this time, so there are plenty of wicked people left over to enter the tribulation, and from them, “survivors”, too.

RE: If those worthy are taken up at the rapture, and when the Lord comes back, all that know not God will be consumed, who is left? The text does not say “all”.

Granted! Does it need to? Two types of people are in the world – those who know God and those who do not know God. (Is there a third type of person?) I assume in your thinking, that there are two types of wicked people, those who are attacking Israel, and those who are not attacking Israel. Is there a passage that clearly describes these two wicked groups and their distinction from one another?

It says “them that know not God”. Obviously, if they did know God, they would not be attacking Jerusalem, of which we are commanded to pray for the peace of.

RE: Surely I hope you won’t tell me that the Lord comes back (Rapture) and only takes some of His people to heaven, leaving some on earth for the next coming?

I am not sure what you are referring to with Matt 25. How does the parable of the ten virgins show that the Lord only takes a few of His people, and leaves the rest on earth for a second “rescue”? Are you saying the 5 foolish virgins get a second chance to be accepted by the Lord at some future time?

Matt 25:10-13

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

It seems there is no hope offered to the foolish virgins after the door is shut. They were told “I do not know you”.

Matt 7:22 is a reference to final judgment, not the rapture.

Matt 7:22

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

Rev 2-3 – Not sure the connection you are trying to make with this set of verses

(If you could define your point instead of just quoting a reference, it would be most helpful.)

Water, does, indeed, cleanse us from being unclean; one of the marks of sin.

Zech 13:1 states “a fountain will be opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity”

Please note that the passage does not say that the water cleanses from the “marks” of sin. The fountain is opened … for sin and for impurity. (Insertion of words into the text is not a good practice!)

I have enjoyed our conversation and wish you the very best. May God the Father and Jesus our Savior shower you with grace.

Blessings

Carl

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part V

May 13, 2011 / Carl / Leave a comment

A dear friend of mine asked if I would discuss dispensationalism and Zechariah 14 with a brother who owns a bible prophecy website. I gladly accepted the invitation. I have changed the web site owners name to “Brother” for the sake of his privacy. What follows is a continuation of the discussion began in Part I.

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Ah, another very good question, “who flees”! I can tell that you are an honest seeker, not only for your strict devotion to the actual text, but to the reasons and texts that explain the texts!

As for why there would be shadows when the body is there.

The human brain works with symbols. Letters are symbols of sounds. We need the symbols to make up words. Without the symbols, there are no words.

God teaches us through symbols. Why is Jesus called the “Lamb” of God, except that there was a passover lamb that was slaughtered to protect the Hebrews from the 10th plague of death for the firstborn that night in Egypt? Did Jesus come to die on the Passover to commemorate the slaughter of the Lamb, or was the instruction to slaughter the lamb a teaching instruction to teach about the necessity of Jesus to die for our sins? I think the latter. But the Feasts of the Lord are not called Feasts of the Jews, they are for everyone, as a teaching tool.

Symbols are not done away with, just because you understand their meaning. They remain, until everyone understands, and probably will remain as reminders, even after everyone understands.

Here’s the answer to your question. Not everyone will understand during the millennium.

Two proof texts: Isaiah 65, and our very own Zech 14 in which we are looking. Some disobey, even AFTER Jesus returns, and there will be bad consequences for them.

In Isaiah 65, it says if a man dies at age 100, he will be considered a child, and cursed, implying that most people will be living the entire 1000 years, but clearly, not all will be made immortal during that time.

Isa 65

New Heavens and a New Earth

¹⁷ “Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

¹⁸ But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

¹⁹ I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

²⁰ “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach ^[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.

²¹ They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

²² No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.

²³ They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.

²⁴ Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.

²⁵ The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.

Next, Zech 14 shows that of the survivors after the millennium, the rebellious will refuse to worship the Lord on the Feast days in Jerusalem.¹⁶ Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. ¹⁷ If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. ¹⁸ If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD ^[d] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Your question is the key problem with a post tribulation rapture. If, at the end of the tribulation, God simultaneously makes the righteous immortal and takes them to heaven, and kills the rest, then who populates the earth? There would have to be three divisions, and there are never three divisions.

The pre trib rapture solves this problem. At the pretrib rapture, the worthy are taken to heaven. (also, I believe the invaders from the north who attack Jerusalem in Ezekiel 38 – 39 will be killed by fire, causing much confusion about who was removed or killed by God’s hand.)

At the return 7 years later, Jesus comes with his immortal bride, the raptured people from out of heaven, and kills the wicked. Those not killed will be refreshed, and most will live out the entire millennium, and only a few will be dying young at age 100.

So, those who remain, not being given instant immortality, will be the ones fleeing the wrath of the lamb at that time.

Or at least, that’s what my studies have led me to believe, and I see no problems or inconsistencies with my view.

This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

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Brother

It is true that people understand concepts through symbology, but we don’t have to understand a concept. As a Christian, I am not following a concept. I am following a Person. And since He has died and rose again, ever to live for the glory of God and as the High Priest for His people, concepts and symbology are not only unnecessary, I believe the Word frowns on believers who retreat to them as a method of living.

Colossians 2

¹⁶Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

¹⁷Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 10 addresses this topic very well, and it is important to remember that the author was speaking to those who had come out of the system of symbols and ceremonies. The last two verses are instructive, given this context.

Hebrews 10

³⁸Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

³⁹But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I have considered the authors intent, and, given the context and the audience, it seems reasonable to see those who were returning to the former ceremonies and rituals as “drawing back…” If this is so, how could any period of time come when returning to the ceremonies and rituals be acceptable? Would this not be a terrible insult to the One who paid it all for us?

When my wife is in the room with me, I do not look at a picture of her, or stare at her shadow. I relate to her as a person! It would be foolish for me to stare lovingly into a picture of my wife, thinking she would accept my loving actions (staring at her picture) as a proper response to her being with me in the room. That just don’t make no sense!

Isa 65
¹⁷ “Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.

The topic in consideration in Isa 65 is the creation of new heavens and new earth. I think you are applying this to the Millennium. That is not what the text says. It’s best to just believe scripture!

Zechariah 14
I understood you teach the Zech passage to occur at the end of the rapture/beginning of the Millennium – Is that right? If so, then Zech is referring to the beginning of the Millenium, (foot on Mt Olives) and is speaking about “survivors”

Again, who are the survivors?

The context, according to what you have mentioned, for Zech 14, is the return of the Lord to the Mount of Olives, at the end of tribulation. If this is so,where does 2 Thess 1:8 fit in

⁷And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

¹⁰When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Was not Paul speaking of the second coming and if so, “flaming fire will consume all that know not God and that obey not the gospel” ,who is left for the Millenium?

Who is left when the Mount is cleft in Zech 14? (Correct me if I am wrong in understanding that you apply this to the second coming prior to the Millenium!)

If those worthy are taken up at the rapture, and when the Lord comes back, all that know not God will be consumed, who is left? You mentioned “Those not killed will be refreshed, and most will live out the entire millennium, and only a few will be dying young at age 100.” I think you are referring to Isa 65 again (living to 100) That passage is referring to the new heavens and new earth.

On what basis will those not killed be worthy of this “escape”?

Surely I hope you won’t tell me that the Lord comes back (Rapture) and only takes some of His people to heaven, leaving some on earth for the next coming?

If He takes all His people, on what basis will the new group that “escape” find their salvation?

Surely I hope you will not tell me that the Lord will begin again to accept the sacrificial offerings again. I believe you know the New Testament well enough to know that is an affront to the God we serve. The sacrifices are done, the religion of Judaism has vanished away!

Heb 8

¹³In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

I am sure I am misunderstanding you when you tell me that water will cleanse us from sin, and that rituals and ceremonies will be re instituted in the future.We need to see the sacrifice of Jesus as the ultimate and final sacrifice offered to God to rescue us sinners from a terrible existence. I am sure this is your heart too! Consider.

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Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part IV

May 13, 2011 / Carl / Leave a comment

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I believe you ask very good questions. Some of the best I’ve ever heard asked!

To what intent does the prophets say “god treads on the mountains”?

I must reply I know of many possible intentions, and I know that God often teaches mankind through parallels, examples, similitudes, and first doing things in the natural, and then the spiritual.

For example, when Adam and Eve sinned, God gave them animal skins, not Levi’s. Thus, there was an “animal sacrifce” from the beginning to teach of death, and consequences of sin, and that a sacrifice can provide a covering for sin. As we now know, 6000 years later, Jesus’s death for us provides for us white robes that cover our sins.

What is being communicated that God walks on the mounts? Good question. I can only guess and make an educated Biblical guess, in fitting with all other scriptures and doctrines. what is your guess?

I have walked on mountaintops. Have you? What did you see and feel?

I see a great view all around; it’s not just “the outdoors”, but it’s an amazing feeling to see so much. Often you are exhausted when you get there. I feel peace. I feel humbled. I feel exhilarated. I feel an appreciation for the creation. I often feel I can commune with God.

I was a skier. We take a chairlift to mountaintops. It’s not the same, but often, just a little bit similar, or only a bit less so.

One thing I have noticed about the outdoors is the sense of freedom, yet also, the sense of lack of security; without the comforts of civilization. There is freedom, and fear.

There is also no slavery in nature. Only man engages in debt slavery with one another. Animals do not do such horrible things to one another.

But what do scriptures say about mountains? They are often places of worship of God, or of false gods. The “temple mount” in Jerusalem is a holy spot. Moses saw the burning bush in the mountains, on holy ground.

Is God “mystical” and so “spiritual” that things can not be understood or practical?

Our God is practical. Idolatry is an affront because it is a useless waste of time, dishonors God, and is often used to pool money from misled people and steal from them, as they trust in a false idol rather than reality.

Jesus said about trees that do not bear fruit, to cut them to the ground.

Mountains are not very useful forms of land; the land is often unfit for human use, unfruitful, and in the sierras, the land behind the mountains is desert, since the mountains drain the precipitation out of the clouds as the clouds move up over the mountains, so the mountains also make large parts of the earth less useful.

Perhaps God intends to level the mountains, to make the earth more useful and fruitful?

Perhaps mountains are an affront to God, lifted up places that compete with the Glory of God.

Perhaps mountains represent fallen angels, who will be destroyed.

Perhaps mountains represent kingdoms of man, who will be destroyed.

Perhaps mountains are like temples of worship, like pyramids built in the shape of mountains.

Perhaps God will destroy not only the physical mountains, but all things like mountains, fallen angels, kingdoms, worthless land, worthless idols, etc.

There are video games where you can “terra form”. Often, tearing down the mountains and filling the valleys lets you build a bigger city with more people.

I have often wondered if there would be any such thing as skiing on a mountain when God comes to restore the earth. I don’t know.

But in no case can I use any sort of spiritual lesson or teaching to deny what the Bible or the prophets say.

God can, and usually does both, first the physical, then the spiritual. If Jesus comes back to land on, and destroy a mountain, I believe the best interpretation is to take that literally, and to understand that the literal future fulfillment is the beginning of what will take place around the world, and in the spiritual fulfillment, as God will destroy all kingdoms set against him, as well, which we know he will do.

But in no case, is the spiritual interpretation to be used to deny the physical and literal, when there are no problems with the physical being fulfilled.

Brother

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Brother

Thanks for such a quick response! I am really enjoying this!

If you take the landing of Jesus literally, please consider this

If we take Zechariah in a literal manner –

Would this be acceptable to you, and if not, on what basis do you reject the fountain as being literally able to cleanse from sin, but accept “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives”, as the physical return of Christ (Notice that it does not say that He lands on the mount, or descends on the mount, or even that he climbs the mount to get to the top.)

Thanks again, and have a great day!

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Thank you.

Sin is often a misunderstood concept. I know it can mean a range of things, from “missing the mark” to “debt”. Can literal water cleans that? Also, many of the “do nots”, resulted in the condition of being “unclean” until washing in literal water, which did fix the uncleanness.

So, literal water was not a spiritual thing, but actual instructions for washing the physical flesh.

When a people decided to obey the Bible literally, say, in the USA about 100 years ago, and actually wash, diseases that had unknown causes began to go away, particularly infant sepsis.

See, doctors would open dead bodies doing autopsies, and then help mothers deliver babies, without washing, and moms and babies were dying at a rate of like 9%, which is high, and they did not know the source was dirty bacteria that could be eliminated simply by hand washing in water.

So, does literal water cleanse sin? Often, YES!

Furthermore, are our waters impure? Often, YES!

And this water is specifically stated that it is “for Jerusalem”, it is not “for the world” which it would be if it were some sort of spiritual water, therefore, I see it as literal.

Why would you have a problem with those waters being literal?

Didn’t God cause a literal stream of literal water to come from the rock that Moses struck?

Didn’t one of the prophets instruct a man to wash himself in the Jordan River 7 times to become clean, and even though the Jordan was not the cleanest river, still, it worked?

Sincerely,

Brother

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Brother

Wow – a bit surprised by your comment.

I assumed that the cleansing of sin in Zech, due to your association of its description in the same context as the second coming of Jesus, would have the cleansing effect as described after the crucifixion, and not merely a ceremonial act. Hebrews mentions, not a ceremonial washing, but the actual sacrifices given in the old covenant, as being insufficient to “make the comers thereunto perfect” If the sacrifices were not able, how much less a ceremonial washing?

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

(It would seem foolhardy to return to a shadow when the body is present!)

During my drive home tonight from work I was thinking about the original verse under consideration in context – Zech 14:3-5 – which states

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Verse 5 states “and ye shall flee…”

Who is fleeing? If this is the second coming, all the Lords enemies will be destroyed, all the saved will be with the Lord, and if the mountain is cleft from east to west, any bystanders (who would be left?) will be destroyed by the techonic action.

And what are they fleeing from? Obviously, if this is the second coming, the lost will be destroyed, the saved will be with the Lord and who else is there?

Have a great weekend!

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Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part III

May 13, 2011 / Carl / Leave a comment

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Brother

I admit error in the Rev 19 passage concerning the trumpet. Thank you for noting it!

If we continue in the Word of God, our faith will increase, and this discussion will be fruitful.

If you could respond to the issues of Zechariah 14, it would be appreciated. (specific questions have been bulleted).
I have copied them below for your convenience.

Zechariah, as a book, is considered an apocalyptic book, with the last chapters containing visions that are difficult to understand, and is very similar, in some aspects as the book of Revelation. For Zech. to mention that “His feet shall stand on the mount of Olives”, and considering the highly symbolic nature of the vision (see below for considerations on the symbolic nature of the vision), it is difficult for me to take Zech completely literal.

It is important to compare scripture with scripture, so with that in mind, consider some of the OT prophets who spoke of similar circumstances – ie His feet on mountains….

Amos 4:13 – God “treads on the high places of the earth” – Does God literally walk on the mountains?

Micah 1:3-4 – states “the LORD cometh forth out of his place” and that He will “tread upon the high places of the earth” causing the mountains to be “molten under him” and the valleys “shall be cleft, as wax before the fire…”.(v4) – Will God will literally come down out of heaven and walk on the high places causing the mountains to melt?

It seems Zechariah, along with many of the prophets, are describing future times of judgment or such in pictures that communicate to the Hebrew mind. (Remember that we live in a scientific, analytical age, that might not be as conducive to understanding the prophets as it is to understand physic or mathematical concepts.)

Symbology of Zechariah

A few question to address if we take Zechariah in a literal manner

Verse 8 – the “fountain of living waters,” Could this phrase represent a spiritual truth? Zech 13:1 states “a fountain will be opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity” If we understand the fountain literally, the natural conclusion would be that the waters cleanse from sin?

Verse 10 – All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.-I assume that if the Mount of Olives will be literally split, the same interpretive stance would be used to understand verse 10. If so, all of Jerusalem will be lifted up. Comparing scripture with scripture, I see Micah making some similar comments about Jerusalem (house of the Lord) in Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. Am I to take this literally? If so, the house of the Lord will be 6 miles above sea level (above Mt Everest, at 29,000′ above sea level). How people will flow into this is hard to understand, with winds up to 177 mph, and temps dropping to -76^. (I hope the living water has antifreeze in it!)

I hope you understand that I am being a bit facetious, and I hope it is taken in with a “grain of salt”. (You see, even nowadays, we understand each other using phrases that are particular to our culture – ie grain of salt = not very serious.)

I find it to be a great challenge to try to understand the mindset of the OT prophet, and it takes time and patience to fit it all together. (One example is that when a prophet mentions “mountains” in a vision, he can sometimes mean a “kingdom” – Check it out!)

Carl

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When God judged the earth in the Flood, the geography changed significantly, God both raised up the land, and he separated the earth in the days of Peleg. It would not surprise me if God changed the physical mountains in a restored earth, to level out much of the high places around the globe, by bringing down Mt. Everest to more reasonable levels of elevation, in fact, scripture hints at that very thing.

But yes, mountains can also mean spiritual strongholds.

Isaiah 42:

¹⁵ I will lay waste the mountains and hills,
And dry up all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers coastlands,
And I will dry up the pools.
¹⁶ I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
I will lead them in paths they have not known.
I will make darkness light before them,
And crooked places straight.
These things I will do for them,
And not forsake them.

Isa 2:

² Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
Thatthe mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;

And all nations shall flow to it.

³ Many people shall come and say,
“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

¹² For the day of the LORD of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—
¹³ Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that arehigh and lifted up,
And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
¹⁴ Upon all the high mountains,

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Brother

I understand about the Flood issues, and that the topographic “adjustments” were a result of judgement. It is certainly possible that this may happen. (I am not so sure about the Peleg thing, but that is immaterial!)

It is interesting that the mountain of the Lords house is referred to as being above the hills/mountains, not that the hills/mountains are lowered. Laying waste to mountains and hills may refer to the bounty being produced on them being destroyed (see the next line where the Hebrew poetry commonly uses the second line to further explain the first line, ie the vegetation being dried up further explains “the mountains being laid waste”!), not that the mountains would be flattened.

Isa 2:12 merely states that the day of the Lord will “come upon everything high…, upon all the high mountains”. This does not mention that the mountains are lowered, but that the day of the Lord will come upon the mountains – whatever that means is not specifically mentioned (that I can see at least!)

Two quick questions for you

Amos 4:13 – God “treads on the high places of the earth” – Does God literally walk on the mountains?

Micah 1:3-4 – states “the LORD cometh forth out of his place” and that He will “tread upon the high places of the earth” causing the mountains to be “molten under him” and the valleys “shall be cleft, as wax before the fire…”.(v4) – Will God will literally come down out of heaven and walk on the high places causing the mountains to melt?

Thanks for the response – Able to get back to you during coffee break so it worked out well. Looking forward to your next comments.Be blessed.

Carl

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Genesis 10:25
And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.next subject.

Does God walk literally upon the mountains? I know not, nor do you. I live near a mountain. I know that nobody lives on top of the mountain, and the vast majority of the time, nobody is on top of the mountain. I know that Mt. Everest is desolate, and thus, there is nobody who lives near who could confirm or deny such a thing, therefore, the question is impossible to confirm or deny.

But even more, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deny!

As we know from scripture, Jesus, in resurrected form, appears to his disciples in ways that they cannot discern that it is even Jesus. The Bible also says that God is invisible.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

If an invisible God walks literally upon the mountains where there is nobody around, how in the world are you able to deny such a thing? You are completely incapable to say that God does not literally walk upon the mountains, and you are completely incapable of making a doctrine, or teaching, that God does not do such things, when the Bible clearly says that he does.

Be careful.

It’s best to just believe scripture, rather than try to deny it.

And if it requries the denial of scripture, then you are on very bad ground.

Sincerely,

Brother

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Brother

In your last response you said – “Does God walk literally upon the mountains? I know not, nor do you. “Why does Amos say He does? Is it not to inform us of something?

In the original post, I believe you said that you expect Jesus to touch down on the Mt of Olives and because of this, that the mount would split (or something to that effect). This is the context of my discussion. Is the prophet Zechariah describing a literal touching of the mount with God’s literal feet? Correct me if I have read you wrong, but I think you would interpret Zechariah that Jesus would land/touch/set/stand/ etc on Mt of Olives in fulfillment of Zech 14. I merely brought Amos and Micah into the discussion to ask if these incidents are of the same literalness.

No-one wants to deny the Word. I surely do not, and I am convinced you are striving to be faithful. Finding the intent of a scripture should not be construed as a denial of scripture if it rubs you or I the wrong way. Remember that the Word is to transform us, not us try to conform the Word (to our liking!)
I would agree the Bible clearly teaches that God “treads on the high places of the earth” and “the LORD cometh forth out of his place” and that He will “tread upon the high places of the earth” causing the mountains to be “molten under him” and the valleys “shall be cleft, as wax before the fire…”.(v4). My concern is to try to understand what the prophet was trying to communicate.
If, as you say, no one can deny or prove whether an invisible God walks on the mountains, to what point did the prophet tell us these things?

Next question

If we take Zechariah in a literal manner –

Verse 8 – the “fountain of living waters,” Could this phrase represent a spiritual truth? Zech 13:1 states “a fountain will be opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity”
If we understand the fountain literally, the natural conclusion would be that the waters cleanse from sin. Would this be acceptable to you, and if not, on what basis do you reject the fountain as being literally able to cleanse from sin, but accept “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives”, as the physical return of Christ (Notice that it does not say that He lands on the mount, or descends on the mount, or even that he climbs the mount to get to the top.)

Please do not respond asking me if I believe in the physical return of Christ – I surely do and with every day expect it sooner and sooner!

Looking forward to your response

Be blessed

Carl

PS – I would appreciate an explanation as to what standard you use in interpreting the Word. (I informed you as to my present approach to understanding the Word and would appreciate an explanation of how you approach scripture for the purpose of understanding.)

Thanks again

Carl

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part II

May 8, 2011 / Carl / Leave a comment

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Brother – I am a little confused – the text in 1 Thessalonians is merely stating that the Lord is descending with the trump of God. (He may be blowing it, but 1 Thessalonians doesn’t specifically say that! – As a matter of fact, 1 Corinthians doesn’t say that the Lord will be blowing the trump, just that the trump sounds …”at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound”….)

I am a little confused about who I owe an apology to? I asked you some questions because a brother informed me that you were open to discussion and debate. (I find it very profitable to engage with believers in discussion to sharpen my own understanding.) When I am proven wrong I would like to think I accept it. (Admittedly, I sometimes become quiet, but eventually realize that truth is more important than my ego or traditions.) If I have offended you or caused you any conflict, I will not continue this discussion. If you would like to continue, please do so, understanding that my concern is – “What does the text say!”

In any case, may God bless you and draw you into His love.

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Carl

I’m sorry, I’m the one who owes you an apology. I did not see, I was blind, I did not see that you noted that passage DID mention the “trump of God”, but that your position had nuances that I did not detect right away. More often than not, I get people who claim the text does not contain the words it does contain, and the debate is rather simple, yet they will still refuse to admit error.

I can see this discussion may be very good.

Now I will admit confusion further, as to the nature of how you reason and argue.

Repeatedly, you are saying to me to not “build doctrine on silence”, yet, when the text of 1 Thess is silent on the issue of whether the trumpet is sounding, you build upon that, and use that silence as somehow enough proof to discern a difference of significance.

Well, when do you apply your standard, and is your standard Biblical, because it does not seem to me that you are consistent here in applying it.

In other words, you appear to be grasping at gnats, but swallowing a camel.

Since you make a big issue over the “different” trump reference in 1 Thess 4 vs. 1 Cor 15, but the entire lack of a trumpet in Zech 14 and Rev 19 seems to not bother you at all, as if you are willing to “swallow” the idea that there is a trumpet in passages that do not mention it, and yet, claim that there is enough of a difference in the trumpet in 1 Thess 4, that it’s somehow significant of something?

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Brother

I am glad that we can continue with our discussion. I do hope that in the midst of our discussion you may see more than just comments on the Text, but a desire to edify and build each other up in the faith.

Now I will admit confusion further, as to the nature of how you reason and argue.

Repeatedly, you are saying to me to not “build doctrine on silence”,

Agreed

yet, when the text of 1 Thess is silent on the issue of whether the trumpet is sounding, you build upon that,

My intent is to point out that your comment “Both chapters also teach the resurrection and of the trumpet blast” is not accurate. The second passage – (1 Thess) does not mention any noise from the trumpet. Just that the Lord is “coming with… the trump of God”

and use that silence as somehow enough proof to discern a difference of significance.

The significance is minor, but I only sought to draw to your attention a point you may want to edit on your site.

Well, when do you apply your standard,

As to a standard to apply, I assume you are referring to my understanding passages within the Word. I seek to be as literal as possible unless the context demands I consider a symbolic/poetic/spiritual interpretation. You see, I was a very good dispensationalist for much of my Christian life. One of the items I believed was that every prophecy of the first coming of the Lord Jesus in the OT was fulfilled literally in the NT. I believed that passionately for many years. I was so convinced that I assumed it was unassailable. Then I began a study a few years back on how the apostles interpreted the OT showing the messianic fulfillment in Jesus. This study began my reconsidering of my literalistic interpretive methods.

Is your standard Biblical, because it does not seem to me that you are consistent here in applying it.

I think you are asking me two questions here.

Biblical? – Since I am seeking to understand the apostolic method of interpreting the OT, I would hope that my methods are Biblical.

Consistent? – I may be (certainly AM) very much a novice at this, and with this admission, understand that consistency of application may be weak. If you see a specific instance in which I am not interpreting a passage in light of its genre and context, a challenge would be most welcome.

In other words, you appear to be grasping at gnats, but swallowing a camel.

If I appear to be doing this, please give me an example from my previous texts.

Again, the issue (trump issue in 1 Thess and 1 Cor) is not a major point, simply an item to call to your attention for the sake of clarity. I do not recall mentioning a trumpet with regards to Zech 14. (That passage dealt with the topographic disturbance of the City of Jersusalem and the physical splitting of the Mount of Olives) Rev 19, of course, has a trumpet mentioned within the text, but I do not recall the trump being an item of discussion within my message.

To focus our discussion, it would be appreciated if you could answer the original points of discussion within the email dated Saturday, September 11, 2010, 2:04 PM.

As you work your way through the original email, if you could insert your comments directly after my questions (and even with a different color(?)), it would be appreciated! Be blessed.

In Him

Carl

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Ah, I missed this discussion, being busy with work.

Having reviewed your points, I am lacking faith that this discussion will be fruitful, but I will try.

Again, you make a point to note a distinction of the lack of “trumpet noise” in 1 Thess 4, and what point that difference is, I have no idea. Noted, you are technically correct in that we do not know if the trumpet is sounding in that event described by that verse; unless we are willing to make a “spiritual leap of faith”, and that, I do.

The big trumpet connection I see is contained in Rev 4:1, which clearly teaches about the rapture, and points to it being before the tribulation.

And yet, you make a point to note that the lack of a trumpet mentioned in Zech 14, need not mean anything. And further, you say there is a trumpet in Rev 19, and I read it in two translations, and I’m sorry, but I must be blind.

I’m sorry.

Sincerely,

Brother

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part I

May 6, 2011 / Carl / Leave a comment

A dear friend of mine asked if I would discuss dispensationalism and Zechariah 14 with a brother who owns a bible prophecy website. I gladly accepted the invitation and what follows is the result.

I have changed the web site owners name to “Brother” for the sake of his privacy.

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Brother

A friend directed me to your page and mentioned that you are open to discussion. If you don’t mind, I would like to challenge you on some of your teaching. I hope I do not come off as offensive or argumentative, but I do want to know what the Bible, and only the Bible says.

I have been a believer for close to 30 years and have spent the majority of my Christian life in the dispensational camp. Although many of your points are familiar, I do not want to assume too many things. I have spent the last 3-4 years considering alternate approaches to understanding the Word of God and have slowly pulled away from a literalistic approach for some passages.

What I intend to do is to copy some teaching from your website and comment within the text.(my comments are in italicized)

Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15:

There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture.

Agree

Both chapters also teach the resurrection and of the trumpet blast.

Disagree
Actually 1 Corinthians teaches that “the trumpet shall sound” and 1 Thessalonians that the Lord descends “with…the trump of God” Only 1 Corinthians specifically teaches the sounding of the trumpet.

Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the rapture comes.

1 Corinthians was written in response to heretical teaching about the resurrection, 1 Thessalonians was written due to “their ignorance” (verse 13).

I do hope you are not going to build doctrine out of silence. It is true that neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation, but it also doesn’t teach on the indwelling of the saints with the Holy Spirit. The apostle was addressing a specific issue, and his silence on other issues neither proves or disproves anything!

There is no debate that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation.

Disagree

There is much debate that both Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the Tribulation

Lets discuss Zechariah 14 first

It is important to compare scripture with scripture, so with that in mind, consider some of the OT prophets who spoke of similar circumstances – ie His feet on mountains….

Amos 4:13 – God “treads on the high places of the earth”

Does God literally walk on the mountains?

Micah 1:3-4 – states “the LORD cometh forth out of his place” and that He will “tread upon the high places of the earth” causing the mountains to be “molten under him” and the valleys “shall be cleft, as wax before the fire…”.(v4)

Will God will literally come down out of heaven and walk on the high places causing the mountains to melt?

Symbology of Zechariah

A few question to address if we take Zechariah in a literal manner

Zechariah 14:8 – the “fountain of living waters,”

Could this phrase represent a spiritual truth? Zechariah 13:1 states “a fountain will be opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity” If we understand the fountain literally, the natural conclusion would be that the waters cleanse from sin.

Zechariah 14:10 – All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

I assume that if the Mount of Olives will be literally split, the same interpretive stance would be used to understand verse 10. If so, all of Jerusalem will be lifted up. Comparing scripture with scripture, I see Micah making some similar comments about Jerusalem (house of the Lord) in Micah 4:1

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Taken literally, the house of the Lord will be 6 miles above sea level (above Mt Everest, at 29,000′ above sea level) How people will flow into this is hard to understand, with winds up to 177 mph, and temps dropping to -76^. (I hope the living water has antifreeze in it!)

I hope you understand that I am being a bit facetious, and I hope it is taken in with a “grain of salt”. (You see, even nowadays, we understand each other using phrases that are particular to our culture – ie grain of salt.)

Revelation 19

Of the many methods of interpreting Revelation, you have opted for the “futuristic” method.

What is going on in Revelation 6:1-2? Could this be a picture of the Christ going out to conquer?
What about Revelation 7:15 – 17? I bring this passage into the discussion only due to the reference to the living waters, which I believe you may associate with the millennial kingdom, after the return of Christ.
What is Revelation 11:15-19 describing? Could this be a picture of the return of Christ? How can you place the return of Christ in chapter 19, when it also seems to be taking place in Revelation 11
What about Revelation 14:14-16? It seems that if I were to take this passage literally, the earth will have been reaped by the end of this passage. This is usually associated with the second coming(?)

Although chapter 19 is commonly thought of as being a picture of the return of Christ (and I think it is, for whatever it is worth), these other passages also have some merit to them.

My point is this – Revelation is a book of the revelation of Christ, and is apocalyptic in nature, which demands that we look at each passage carefully, considering each argument. With so many (valid) interpretive methods for the book of Revelation, it seems unwise to depend on a debatable passage to build a highly detailed doctrine.(ie. the return of Christ after the tribulation. (There is no absolute time line given in Revelation, nor should we expect one, since it is written in a highly symbolic form.)

Carl

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Thank you.

I’m open to discussion to the extent that the Bible commands; I’m to try to be able to give a ready answer to all who ask for the reasons for my faith; and yet also, given the limited amount of time in life, I’m also directed to not waste time with people who are unworthy, or who are blind, or people who simply are not yet able to bear truth.

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

That being said, to discern what kind of person you are, I have one basic question; why did you write the following:

RE: Disagree

Actually 1 Corinthians teaches that “the trumpet shall sound” and 1 Thessalonians that the Lord descends “with…the trump of God” Only 1 Cor specifically teaches the sounding of the trumpet.

Can you read the following, and why didn’t you see it, or do you have an explanation, or apology? Or, how do you react when proven wrong?:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

See, it’s one thing to be ignorant, it’s another to be willfully ignorant.

In the first case, people just don’t know where in the Bible it teaches about the rapture.

In the second case, like yours, you have known for 30 years, and you specifically claim that the Bible does not say what it so clearly does. What can explain that kind of willful blindness? I’m very curious.

Sincerely,

Brother

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DOES THE BIBLE

trying to understand

End of the World

Clouds

Clouds

Coming on the Clouds

Elements in the New Testament

Ignorance of Elements

Eschatological “Elements“

WHAT JESUS PROBABLY DIDN’T MEAN – John 14:1-6

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part VI

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part V

New Heavens and a New Earth

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part IV

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part III

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part II

Zechariah 14 and Dispensationalism – A Discussion – Part I

Clouds

Coming on the Clouds

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Ignorance of Elements

Eschatological “Elements“

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New Heavens and a New Earth

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